Optimism Over Despair : On Capitalism, Empire, and Social Change

Introduction

Introduction The interviews in this volume present the views of the world’s leading public intellectual on the consequences of capitalist globalization, and much more, as recorded in conversations with the undersigned over the course of the last four years—from late 2013 to early 2017, to be exact—and originally published in Truthout. Noam Chomsky has been “America’s moral conscience” for more than half a century (even if he remains unknown to the majority of Americans) as well as the world’s most recognized public intellectual, consistently speaking out against US aggression and defending the rights of the weak and the oppressed throughout the world from the time of the Vietnam War to the prese... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 1, Chapter 1 : The Breakdown of American Soci...

Part I The Breakdown of American Society and a World in Transition C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: Noam, you have said that the rise of Donald Trump is largely due to the breakdown of American society. What exactly do you mean by this? NOAM CHOMSKY: The state-corporate programs of the past thirty-five or so years have had devastating effects on the majority of the population, with stagnation, decline, and sharply enhanced inequality being the most direct outcomes. This has created fear and has left people feeling isolated, helpless—victims of powerful forces they can neither understand nor influence. The breakdown is not caused by economic laws. They are policies, a kind of class war initiated by the rich and powerful against the working p... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 1, Chapter 2 : Horror Beyond Description: The...

Horror Beyond Description: The Latest Phase of the “War on Terror” C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: I would like to start by hearing your thoughts on the latest developments on the war against terrorism, a policy that dates back to the Reagan years and was subsequently turned into a doctrine of Islamophobic “crusade” by George W. Bush, with simply inestimable cost to innocent human lives and astonishingly profound effects for international law and world peace. The war against terrorism is seemingly entering a new and perhaps more dangerous phase as other countries have jumped into the fray, with different policy agendas and interests than those of the United States and some of its allies. First, do you agree with the above ass... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 1, Chapter 3 : The Empire of Chaos

The Empire of Chaos C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: US military interventions in the twenty-first century (for example, in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria) have proven totally disastrous, yet the terms of the intervention debate have yet to be redrawn among Washington’s warmakers. What’s the explanation for this? NOAM CHOMSKY: In part, the old cliché—when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. The comparative advantage of the United States is in military force. When one form of intervention fails, doctrine and practice can be revised with new technologies, devices, and the like. There are possible alternatives, such as supporting democratization (in reality, not rhetoric). But these have likely consequences... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 1, Chapter 4 : Global Struggles for Dominance...

Global Struggles for Dominance: ISIS, NATO, and Russia C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: The rise of ISIS is a direct consequence of the US invasion and occupation of Iraq and represents today, by far, the most brutal and dangerous terrorist organization we have seen in recent memory. It also appears that its tentacles have reached beyond the “black holes” created by the United States in Syria, Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan and have now taken hold inside Europe, a fact acknowledged recently by German chancellor Angela Merkel. In fact, it has been estimated that attacks organized or inspired by ISIS have taken place every forty-eight hours in cities outside the above-mentioned countries since early June 2016. Why have countries like Germany ... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 1, Chapter 5 : Is European Integration Unrave...

Is European Integration Unraveling? C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: Noam, thanks for doing this interview on current developments in Europe. I would like to start by asking you this question: Why do you think Europe’s refugee crisis is happening now? NOAM CHOMSKY: The crisis has been building up for a long time. It is hitting Europe now because it has burst the bounds, from the Middle East and from Africa. Two Western sledgehammer blows had a dramatic effect. The first was the US-UK invasion of Iraq, which dealt a nearly lethal blow to a country that had already been devastated by a massive military attack twenty years earlier, followed by virtually genocidal US-UK sanctions. Apart from the slaughter and destruction, the brutal occupation ign... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 1, Chapter 6 : Burkini Bans, New Atheism, and...

Burkini Bans, New Atheism, and State Worship: Religion in Politics C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: In the course of human history, religion has provided relief from pain and suffering to poor and oppressed people around the world, which is probably what Marx meant when he said, “Religion is the opium of the people.” But, at the same time, unspeakable atrocities have been committed in the name of God, and religious institutions often function as the guardians of tradition. What are your own views on the role of religion in human affairs? NOAM CHOMSKY: The general picture is quite ugly and too familiar to recount. But it is worth remembering that there are some exceptions. One striking example is what happened in Latin America after Vatic... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 1, Chapter 7 : Constructing Visions of “Perpe...

Constructing Visions of “Perpetual Peace” C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: Noam, the decline of democracy as a reflection of political apathy is evident in both the United States and in Europe, and the explanation provided in Who Rules the World? is that this phenomenon is linked to the fact that most people throughout Western societies are “convinced that a few big interests control policy.”[4] This is obviously true, but wasn’t this always the case? I mean, people always knew that policy making was in the hands of the elite, but this did not stop them in the past from seeking to influence political outcomes through the ballot box and other means. So, what specific factors might explain political apathy in our own age? ... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 1, Chapter 8 : It Is All Working Quite Well f...

It Is All Working Quite Well for the Rich, Powerful C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: Neoliberal ideology claims that the government is a problem, society does not exist, and individuals are responsible for their own fate. Yet, big business and the rich rely, as ever, on state intervention to maintain their hold over the economy and to enjoy a bigger slice of the economic pie. Is neoliberalism a myth, merely an ideological construct? NOAM CHOMSKY: The term “neoliberal” is a bit misleading. The doctrines are neither new nor liberal. As you say, big business and the rich rely extensively on what economist Dean Baker calls “the conservative nanny state” that they nourish. That is dramatically true of financial institutions. A rec... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 1, Chapter 9

Can Civilization Survive “Really Existing Capitalism”? C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: In a nationally televised address on the eve of the thirteenth anniversary of the September 11, 2001, attacks on the United States, Obama announced to the American people and the rest of the world that the United States is going back to war in Iraq, this time against the self-proclaimed Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS). Is Iraq an unfinished business of the US invasion of 2003, or is the situation there merely the inevitable outcome of the strategic agenda of the Empire of Chaos? NOAM CHOMSKY: “Inevitable” is a strong word, but the appearance of ISIS and the general spread of radical jihadism is a fairly natural outgrowth of Washingt... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 2, Chapter 1

Part II America in the Trump Era C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: Noam, I want to start by asking you to reflect on the following: Trump won the presidential election even though he lost the popular vote. In this context, if “one person, one vote” is a fundamental principle behind every legitimate model of democracy, what type of a democracy prevails in the United States, and what will it take to undo the anachronism of the Electoral College? NOAM CHOMSKY: The Electoral College was originally supposed to be a deliberative body drawn from educated and privileged elites. It would not necessarily respond to public opinion, which was not highly regarded by the founders, to put it mildly. “The mass of people … seldom judge ... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 2, Chapter 2 : The Republican Base Is “Out of...

The Republican Base Is “Out of Control” C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: Noam, perhaps because more outrageous political characters are drawn into US politics than at any other time in the recent past, we have become witnesses of some strange developments, such as GOP candidates attacking “free trade” agreements and even someone like Donald Trump having turned against his fellow billionaires. Are we witnessing the end of the old economic establishment in American politics? NOAM CHOMSKY: There is something new in the 2016 election, but it is not the appearance of candidates who frighten the old establishment. That has been happening regularly. It traces back to the shift of both parties to the right during the neoliberal years... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 2, Chapter 3 : 2016 Election Puts United Stat...

2016 Election Puts United States at Risk of “Utter Disaster” C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: Noam, let’s start with a reflective look at how the US 2016 presidential elections shape up in terms of the state of the country and its role in global affairs and the ideological viewpoints expressed by some of the leading candidates of both parties. NOAM CHOMSKY: It cannot be overlooked that we have arrived at a unique moment in human history. For the first time, decisions have to be made right now that will literally determine the prospects for decent human survival, and not in the distant future. We have already made that decision for a huge number of species. Species destruction is at the level of 65 million years ago, the fifth extin... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 2, Chapter 4 : Trump in the White House

Trump in the White House C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: Noam, the unthinkable has happened. In contrast to all forecasts, Donald Trump scored a decisive victory over Hillary Clinton, and the man that Michael Moore described as a “wretched, ignorant, dangerous part-time clown and full-time sociopath” will be the next president of the United States. In your view, what were the deciding factors that led American voters to produce the biggest upset in the history of US politics? NOAM CHOMSKY: Before turning to this question, I think it is important to spend a few moments pondering just what happened on November 8, a date that might turn out to be one of the most important in human history, depending on how we react. No exaggeration. The ... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 2, Chapter 5 : Global Warming and the Future ...

Global Warming and the Future of Humanity C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: A consensus seems to be emerging among scientists and even political and social analysts that global warming and climate change represent the greatest threat to the planet. Do you concur with this view, and why? NOAM CHOMSKY: I agree with the conclusion of the experts who set the Doomsday Clock for the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. They have moved the clock two minutes closer to midnight—three minutes to midnight—because of the increasing threats of nuclear war and global warming. That seems to me a credible judgment. Review of the record shows that it’s a near miracle that we have survived the nuclear age. There have been repeated cases when nuclear war ca... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 2, Chapter 6 : The Long History of US Meddlin...

The Long History of US Meddling in Foreign Elections C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: Noam, the US intelligence agencies have accused Russia of interference in the US presidential election in order to boost Trump’s chances, and some leading Democrats have actually gone on record saying that the Kremlin’s canny operatives changed the election outcome. What’s your reaction to all this talk in Washington and among media pundits about Russian cyber- and propaganda efforts to influence the outcome of the presidential election in Donald Trump’s favor? NOAM CHOMSKY: Much of the world must be astonished—if they are not collapsing in laughter—while watching the performances in high places and in media concerning Russian ef... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 2, Chapter 7 : The Legacy of the Obama Admini...

The Legacy of the Obama Administration C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: Barack Obama was elected in 2008 as president of the United States in a wave of optimism, but at a time when the country was in the full grip of the financial crisis brought about, according to Obama himself, by “the reckless behavior of a lot of financial institutions around the world” and “the folks on Wall Street.” Obama’s rise to power has been well documented, including the funding of his Illinois political career by the well-known Chicago real estate developer and power peddler Tony Rezko, but the legacy of his presidency has yet to be written. First, in your view, did Obama rescue the US economy from a meltdown, and, second, did he initiate po... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 2, Chapter 8 : Socialism for the Rich, Capita...

Socialism for the Rich, Capitalism for the Poor C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: Noam, in several of your writings you question the usual view of the United States as an archetypical capitalist economy. Please explain. NOAM CHOMSKY: Consider this: Every time there is a crisis, the taxpayer is called on to bail out the banks and the major financial institutions. If you had a real capitalist economy in place, that would not be happening. Capitalists who made risky investments and failed would be wiped out. But the rich and powerful do not want a capitalist system. They want to be able to run the nanny state so when they are in trouble the taxpayer will bail them out. The conventional phrase is “too big to fail.” The IMF did an interesting... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 2, Chapter 9 : The US Health System Is an Int...

The US Health System Is an International Scandal—and ACA Repeal Will Make It Worse C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: Trump and the Republicans are bent on doing away with Obamacare. Doesn’t the 2010 Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ACA) represent an improvement over what existed before? And, what would the Republicans replace it with? NOAM CHOMSKY: I perhaps should say, to begin, that I have always felt a little uncomfortable about the term “Obamacare.” Did anyone call Medicare “Johnsoncare?” Maybe wrongly, but it has seemed to me to have a tinge of Republican-style vulgar disparagement, maybe even of racism. But put that aside. Yes, the ACA is a definite improvement over what came before—which is ... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 2, Chapter 10 : The Perils of Market-Driven Ed...

The Perils of Market-Driven Education C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: At least since the Enlightenment, education has been seen as one of the few opportunities for humanity to lift the veil of ignorance and create a better world. What are the actual connections between democracy and education, or are those links based mainly on a myth, as Neil Postman argued in The End of Education? NOAM CHOMSKY: I don’t think there is a simple answer. The actual state of education has both positive and negative elements, in this regard. An educated public is surely a prerequisite for a functioning democracy—where “educated” means not just informed but enabled to inquire freely and productively, the primary end of education. That goal is som... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 3, Chapter 1 : Anarchism, Communism, and Revo...

Part III Anarchism, Communism, and Revolutions C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: Noam, from the late nineteenth century to the mid- or even late twentieth century, anarchism and communism represented live and vital movements throughout the Western world but also in Latin America and certain parts of Asia and Africa. However, the political and ideological landscape seems to have shifted radically by the early to late 1980s to the point that, while resistance to capitalism remains ever present, it is largely localized and devoid of a vision about strategies for the founding of a new socioeconomic order. Why did anarchism and communism flourish at the time they did, and what are the key factors for their transformation from major ideologies to margina... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 3, Chapter 2 : Is the United States Ready for...

Is the United States Ready for Socialism? C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: Noam, the rise of the likes of Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders seems to indicate that US society is at the present moment in the midst of a major ideological readjustment brought about by the deteriorating state of the standard of living, the explosive growth of income inequality, and myriad other economic and social ills facing the country in the New Gilded Era. In your view, and given the peculiarities of US political culture, how significant are the 2016 presidential elections? NOAM CHOMSKY: The elections are quite significant, whatever the outcome, in revealing the growing discontent and anger about the impact of the neoliberal programs of the past generation, which, as e... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Part 3, Chapter 3 : Why I Choose Optimism over Des...

Why I Choose Optimism over Despair C. J. POLYCHRONIOU: Noam, your book What Kind of Creatures Are We? (Columbia University Press, 2015) brings together your investigation into language and the mind and long-held views of yours on society and politics. Let me start by asking you as to whether you feel that the biolinguistic approach to language that you have developed in the course of the past fifty years or so is still open to further exploration and, if so, what sort of questions remain unanswered about the acquisition of language. NOAM CHOMSKY: Not just me, by any means. Quite a few people. One of the real pioneers was the late Eric Lenneberg, a close friend from the early 1950s when these ideas were brewing. His book Biological Found... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

Notes

[1] Katie Pisa and Time Hume, “Boko Haram Overtakes ISIS as World’s Deadliest Terror Group, Report Says,” CNN, November 19, 2015, www.cnn.com/2015/11/17/world/global-terror-report. [2] William Polk, “Falling into the ISIS Trap,” Consortium News, November 17, 2015, https://consortiumnews.com/2015/11/17/falling-into-the-isis-trap. [3] Nick Turse, “Tomgram: Nick Turse, Success, Failure, and the ‘Finest Warriors Who Ever Went into Combat,’” TomDispatch, October 25, 2015, www.tomdispatch.com/blog/176060. [4] Noam Chomsky, Who Rules the World (Hamish Hamilton Ltd, 2016). [5] Andrew Cockburn, “Down the Tube,” Harper’s, April 2016, https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/down-t... (From: TheAnarchistLibrary.org.)

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