,PET] ,GELD]LOOS ON /ATE =MATION & /ATELESS SOCIETIES 
AN 9T]VIEW CONDUCT$ BY ,DISSID5T ,ISL& ,RADIO 

,PEOPLE 3 

,AU?OR 3 ,PET] ,GELD]LOOS 

,TEXT 3 

,SO LA/ WEEK WE HAD ,PET] ,GELD]LOOS 9 ! /UDIO2 HE'S PROBABLY BE/ KN[N = HIS BOOK ',H[ ,NON-,VIOL5CE ,PROTECTS ! ,/ATE'4 ,HE IS CURR5TLY T\R+ SOCIAL C5T]S >\ND ,EUROPE ) HIS NEW BOOK PUBLI%$ E>LI] ?IS YE>1 CALL$ ',WOR%IP+ ,P[]3 ,AN ,AN>*I/ ,VIEW ( ,E>LY ,/ATE ,=MATION'4 ,WE CAU<T UP ) HIM :ILE HE WAS 9 T[N4 

,D4,I4 _?#a3 ,SO ,PET]1 WELCOME TO ! %[6 

,P4,G43 ,?ANKS A LOT = HAV+ ME4 

,D4,I4 _?#a3 ,I GUESS MY FIR/ QUE/ION IS1 :Y W\LD WE LE>N AB\T /ATE =MATION8 ,:AT VALUE DOES IT HAVE TO UND]/& ! DEVELOPM5T ( /ATES OV] TIME8 

,P4,G43 ,LE>N+ AB\T :]E /ATES CAME FROM1 H[ !Y EM]G$1 :Y ! EVOLV$ & DEVELOP$ ACTUALLY %[S US QUITE A LOT AB\T H[ !Y FUNCTION TODAY4 ,IT PUTS C]TA9 ?+S 9 P]SPECTIVE3 ?+S ?AT MAY SEEM TO BE ADVANCES OR =MS ( PROGRESS CAN BE MORE EASILY REVEAL$ AS *ANGES ?AT ! /ATE GOES ?R\< 9 ORD] TO 9CREASE ITS P[]4 ,& WELL ACTUALLY ONE ( ! ?+S ,I WAS EV5 SURPRIS$ BY 9 ! RESE>* ( ?IS BOOK IS H[ MANY ( ! ME*ANISMS ?AT V]Y E>LY /ATES US$ >E /ILL 9 USE 7ALBEIT 9 ANO!R =M7 BY MOD]N /ATES4 

,D4,I4 _?#a3 ,9 ! BOOK Y\ RECOGNIZE A FEW DIFF]5T DEF9ITIONS ( ! /ATE ?AT EXI/ ALREADY1 & ALSO A FEW DIFF]5T !ORIES ( /ATE-=MATION4 

,P4,G43 ,9/EAD ( US+ A S+LE DEF9ITION ,I ?\< IT W\LD BE BETT] TO HOLD TWO DEF9ITIONS 9 T5SION4 ,ONE IS AN AN>*I/ DEF9ITION :I* IS PRIM>ILY E?ICAL & ANTAGONI/IC2 IT DEF9ES \R RELATION TO ! /ATE AS AN ANTAGONI/IC ONE1 IT *OOSES SIDES4 ,& ! O!R DEF9ITION IS /RUCTURALLY MORE PRECISE2 IT'S MORE AN AN?ROPOLOGICAL ONE ?AT LI/S V>I\S CRIT]IA ?AT A =M ( HI]>*ICAL SOCIAL ORGANIZATION NE$S 9 ORD] TO QUALIFY AS A /ATE4 ,& SO US+ BO? ( ?OSE TWO WE CAN AVAIL \RSELVES ( MORE PRECISION 9 UND]/&+ *ANGES 9 HI]>*ICAL SOCIAL ORGANIZATION & ALSO UND]/& \R RELATION%IP TO ?OSE /RUCTURES4 ,AS F> AS ! DIFF]5T !ORIES1 !RE'S A LOT ( DIFF]5T !ORIES3 ! MA9 ONES ?AT >E TAU<T 9 S*OOL 7REALLY ?AT HAVE NO FACTUAL BACK+1 !Y'RE TOTALLY \T ( ! W9D[ AS F> AS /ATES EVOLV+ BECAUSE WE NE$$ !M OR BECAUSE !Y W]E B5EFICIAL OR RESULT$ FROM A SOCIAL CONTRACT71 ALL ( ?AT'S TOTAL NONS5SE ( C\RSE4 ,!RE >E O!R !ORIES ?AT >E MORE PREVAL5T 9 ! ,LEFT OR 9 ! AN>*I/ MOVEM5T1 :I* MI<T 9CLUDE MAT]IAL DET]M9ISM1 5VIRONM5TAL DET]M9ISM1 PRIMITIVISM2 EA* ( :I* T5D TO NAME C]TA9 FACTORS ?AT CAUSE /ATES TO =M1 & ,I ?9K ALL ?OSE FAIL TO EXPLA9 MANY MANY CASES OR MANY PA?WAYS ( /ATE =MATION4 ,!Y ALSO T5D T[>DS A ME*ANI/IC VIEW ( HUMAN SOCIETIES1 :5 9 FACT A NUMB] ( /ATES >OSE :]E NASC5T ELITES 7ACTUALLY AS A POLITICAL *OICE & AS A /RATEGY7 TOOK ADVANTAGE ( C]TA9 OPPORTUNITIES ?AT >OSE ?AT W\LDN'T 9EVITABLY HAVE CREAT$ /ATES4 ,&1 JU/ ! SAME WAY1 A LOT ( /ATELESS SOCIETIES >E ALSO ! RESULT ( SPECIFIC *OICES ( PEOPLE :O REJECT BE+ RUL$4 

,D4,I4 _?#a3 ,I'M K9DA CURI\S TO GO 9TO ?AT A LITTLE BIT MORE444 

,P4,G43 ,! CLASSICAL ONE >TICULAT$ BY ,5GELS IS ?AT /ATES >E JU/ A TOOL ( ! [N+ CLASS1 & A PRODUCT ( CLASS /RUCTURE 9 SOCIETY2 A NECESS>Y 9/RUM5T = GOV]N+ ! SURPLUS & GOV]N+ WORK+ POPULATIONS4 ,! PROBLEM ) ?AT IS Y\ CAN'T HAVE ANY SIGNIFICANT MAT]IAL ACCUMULATION1 ANY SIGNIFICANT DISP>ITY 9 WEAL? 9 SOCIETY1 UNLESS Y\ ALREADY HAVE A /ATE2 UNLESS Y\ ALREADY HAVE ME*ANISMS ( CO]CION1 ME*ANISMS ( SPIRITUAL PRODUCTION ?AT ALT] A SOCIETY'S VALUES SO ?AT !Y C\LD ACTUALLY CONCEIVABLY CONSID] IT LEGITIMATE = SOME PEOPLE TO BE WEAL?Y & = SOME PEOPLE TO BE />V+4 ,SO Y\ ALREADY NE$ QUITE A FEW PRIM>ILY POLITICAL & SPIRITUAL /RUCTURES 9 PLACE BE=E Y\ CAN EV5 REALLY />T !SE PROCESSES ( MAT]IAL ACCUMULATION4 

,D4,I4 _?#a3 ,SO H[ W\LD A !ORY OR A CONCEPT ( /ATE-=MATION EFFECT H[ WE CONCEIVE ( REVOLUTION8 

,P4,G43 ,:5 WE /UDY /ATE-=MATION WE SEE ?AT IT'S NOT BY ANY MEANS A SMOO? OR L9E> PROCESS3 !RE >E MANY CASES ( /ATES ?AT HAVE FALL5 AP>T DUE TO !IR [N 9COMPET5CE OR ?AT HAVE BE5 OV]?R[N BY !IR [N POPULATIONS1 BY ! RESI/ANCE ( NEI<BOR+ SOCIETIES444 ,& SO WE SEE ?AT 9 FACT 9 ! PA/ !RE HAVE BE5 A GREAT MANY PROCESSES ?AT TODAY WE MI<T REF] TO AS 0REVOLUTION01 A GREAT MANY TIMES :5 SOCIETIES HAVE REJECT$ OR OV]?R[N /ATES4 ,& SO ! /ATES ?AT EXI/ TODAY 7& ESPECIALLY ! MOD]N /ATE73 !SE >E MODELS ?AT CONTA9 AN 9/ITUTIONAL MEMORY ( HAV+ REIMPOS$ !IR AU?ORITY OV] A SOCIETY & )9 A SOCIETY ?AT HAD ALREADY LE>N$ TO REJECT /ATE P[]4 ,SO !SE >E MORE 9TELLIG5T MODELS ( ! /ATE ?AT KN[ H[ TO CO-OPT RESI/ANCE2 ( IF /ATE P[] COLLAPSES 9 \R LIFETIMES1 IF 9 ANY REGION ( ! GLOBE WE'RE ABLE TO REJECT /ATE AU?ORITY1 OV]COME /ATE AU?ORITY 7& ?AT'S SOME?+ ?AT'S ACTUALLY HAPP5+ ) 9CREAS+ FREQU5CY 9 ! LA/ DECADE7 !N UNTIL ?AT PROCESS GOES GLOBAL1 UNTIL EV]Y LA/ VE/IGE ( ! /ATE IS DE/ROY$ EV]Y:]E1 !N !RE WILL BE ATTEMPTS TO REIMPOSE /ATE AU?ORITY4 ,& ?OSE ATTEMPTS AT LEA/ 9 BROAD T]MS WILL PROBABLY FOLL[ SOME ( ! PATT]NS ( WAYS 9 HAS HAPP5$ SO MANY TIMES 9 ! PA/4 

,D4,I4 _?#a3 ,& :AT DO Y\ ID5TIFY AS BE+ SOME ( !SE NORMS OR PRACTICES ?AT ALL[ ?AT TO HAPP52 ?+S ?AT WE %\LD BE AW>E (1 MAYBE DISMANTLE 9 ADVANCE1 OR BE AW>E ( 9 ! AFT]MA? & 5SURE ?AT !Y DON'T EX]CISE !IR P[] ?AT !Y HAVE8 

,P4,G43 ,NASC5T ELITES :]E !Y'RE TRY+ TO BR+ BACK /ATE AU?ORITY 7OR1 ?IS IS ALSO ! CASE ) /ATES ?AT >E COLONIZ+ /ATELESS SOCIETIES7 PRETTY MU* ALWAYS 5C\RAGE PATRI>*AL DYNAMICS4 ,PATRI>*Y T5DS TO BE A V]Y USEFUL LEVEL = ELITES TO BUILD MORE HI]>*Y 9 SOCIETY1 & ALSO TO MOBILIZE & MILIT>IZE A P>T ( ! POPULATION ?AT !Y MEAN TO RULE 9 ORD] TO SUPPORT !IR AIMS4 ,SO 9 ! CASE ( ! MOD]N /ATE1 AFT] ! ,WE/]N ,ROMAN ,EMPIRE COLLAPS$ MU* ( WE/]N ,EUROPE WAS /ATELESS = C5TURIES2 & !N ! FEUDAL /ATES ?AT >OSE AFT] ?AT 7G5]ALLY AS A RESULT ( ,G]MAN W>RIOR CLASSES CONQU]+ SOME O!R POPULATION71 ?OSE /ATES W]E V]Y V]Y WEAK 9 COMP>ISON ) ! ,ROMAN ,EMPIRE & O!R E>LI] /ATES1 & ( C\RSE MU* WEAK] ?AN ! MOD]N /ATE ?AT EV5TUALLY ROSE 9 ! LA/ #e - GIVE OR TAKE - YE>S4 ,& A MAJOR P>T ( ! PROCESS 7& !RE W]E ( C\RSE LOTS ( DIFF]5T SIMULTANE\S PROCESSES1 = EXAMPLE CONFLICT AGA9/ ! ,CA?OLIC ,*UR*1 EXPANSION ( TRADE NETWORKS & SO =?71 BUT ONE ( ! V]Y IMPORTANT PROCESSES 9 ?IS WAS A V]Y V]Y VEHEM5T REG5]ATION ( PATRI>*AL RELATIONS4 ,A LOT ( :AT'S REF]R$ TO AS ! ,R5AISSANCE & ! ,5LI<T5M5T 7& !N ! WIT* HUNTS ?AT ACCOMPANI$ ! E>LI] P]IODS ( ! ,R5AISSANCE & ! 5D ( ! ,MIDDLE ,AGES7 WAS A RE9/ITUTION ( ! V]Y PATRI>*AL RELATION%IPS ?AT HAD BE5 /RONG DUR+ ! ,ROMAN ,EMPIRE BUT ?AT W]E V]Y WEAK DUR+ ! ,MIDDLE ,AGES4 ,IT ALSO SEEMS ?AT ! ,GREEK CITY /ATES LIKE ,A!NS & SO =?1 !Y REEM]G$ CO-OPT+ ANTI-AU?ORIT>IAN VALUES ?AT MAY V]Y WELL HAVE EM]G$ AS A RESULT ( ! POPUL> REBELLIONS AGA9/ !SE L>GE EMPIRES LIKE ! ,MYC5AEAN /ATE1 ,BABYLON & ,EGYPT ?AT HAD FALL5 AP>T DUR+ ! ,BRONZE ,AGE COLLAPSE4 ,SO ! NEW EM]G+ ,GREEK /ATES LAT*$ ON TO !SE ANTI-AU?ORIT>IAN VALUES ( POLITICAL FRE$OM1 EQUALITY & SO =?3 BUT IT WAS A PATRI>*AL VISION ( EQUALITY & FRE$OM & ?AT WAS A VITAL +R$I5T TO ! MILIT>ISM & ULTIMATELY SLAV]Y ?AT WAS AT ! BASIS ( ! P[] ( ?OSE ,GREEK CITY-/ATES4 ,SO GETT+ RID ( PATRI>*Y ,I ?9K W\LD BE ONE ( ! MO/ IMPORTANT ELEM5TS ( ANY PROCESS LIKE ?AT4 ,& ALSO ANO!R ?+ W\LD BE FI<T+ ! EM]G5CE ( C5TRAL PO9TS 9 SOCIETY1 ANY C5TRAL PO9T 9 :I* DECISION-MAK+ IS MORE LEGITIMATE & 9 :I* ALL ( SOCIETY'S DECISIONS HAVE TO BE LEGITIMAT$ OR VALIDAT$2 & ?IS WILL PROBABLY 9ITIALLY HAPP5 UND] ! GUISE ( DIRECT DEMOCRACY4 ,IT WILL TAKE1 QUITE POSSIBLY1 ! =M ( AN ASSEMBLY4 ,BUT IF IT'S ONE ASSEMBLY - EV5 IF EV]YONE CAN SUPPOS$LY P>TICIPATE - IF IT'S ONE ASSEMBLY ?R\< :I* ALL ( A SOCIETY'S SUPPOS$LY LEGITIMATE DECISIONS HAVE TO PASS1 !N WE'RE ALREADY DEAL+ ) A V]Y FUNDAM5TAL POLITICAL ALI5ATION FROM :I* /ATE P[] CAN REEM]GE4 ,BO? BECAUSE !RE IS NO ONE C5TRAL SPACE 9 :I* EV]YONE IS EQUALLY ADVANTAG$1 & BECAUSE PEOPLE ) C]TA9 ABILITIES1 ) C]TA9 P[]S1 F9D IT G5]ALLY EASY TO DOM9ATE ?OSE SPACES2 & ?AT DIVISION BETWE5444 BECAUSE REALLY1 HUMANS >E MAK+ DECISIONS AT EV]Y MOM5T ( \R LIVES1 EV]Y HUMAN SPACE IS A DECISION-MAK+ SPACE4 ,SO WE HAVE TO ?9K AB\T :AT K9DS ( ACTIVITIES1 :AT K9DS ( P[]S1 >E M>G9ALIZ$1 9VISIBLIZ$ & SUPPRESS$ :5 WE RECOGNIZE ! PR$OM9ANCE ( A C5TRAL ASSEMBLY4 ,IT'S (T5 9 9=MAL SPACES 9 SOCIETY 7! HI/ORICALLY MORE 'FEM99E' SPACES 9 SOCIETY & SO =?7 ?AT >E M>G9ALIZ$ & SUPPRESS$ SO ?AT Y\ CAN HAVE ?IS C5TRAL DECISION-MAK+ PO9T 9 SOCIETY4 

,D4,I4 _?#a3 ,:]E DO Y\ SEE ! LOCUS ( P[] 9 A NON-/ATE OR NON-HI]>*ICAL SOCIETY OR COMMUNITY8 

,P4,G43 ,AS DISP]S$1 DIFFUSE & DEC5TRALIZ$ AS POSSIBLE4 ,& A LOT ( HI/ORICALLY /ATELESS SOCIETIES >E ORGANIZ$ 9 ?AT WAY4 ,!Y HAVE HI< CONNECTIVITY1 !RE'S AN EXTREME AM\NT ( COMMUNICATION BETWE5 DIFF]5T COMMUNITIES1 BETWE5 DIFF]5T NUCLEI4 ,COMMUNICATION 9 EV]Y S5SE ( ! WORD1 BUT ALSO 9 T]MS ( K9%IP RELATIONS2 !Y (T5 HAVE K9%IP SY/EMS 9 :I* PRETTY MU* EV]YONE CAN BE SAID TO BE RELAT$ TO EV]YONE ELSE & !RE=E ALSO CALL 9 FAVORS FROM EV]YONE ELSE & RELY ON ! SOLID>ITY OR ! HOSPITALITY ( EV]YONE ELSE 9 !IR SOCIETY4 ,& JU/ ! SPREAD+ ( 9=MATION1 ! %>+ ( DECISIONS MADE4 ,)9 !SE *AOTIC NETWORKS ACTUALLY DECISION-MAK+ T5DS TO BE QUITE 9TELLIG5T 7& ?IS HAS EM]G$ 9 /UDIES ( ANTS & HONEY BEES BUT ALSO /UDIES ( HUMAN POPULATIONS1 ?AT EV5 ?\< !RE'S NO C5TRAL PO9T ?AT'S ! PRIVILEG$ VANTAGE FROM :I* ALL ! DECISION-MAK+ CAN BE *>T$ & TRACK$1 IF EA* 9DIVIDUAL 9 ?IS SOCIETY HAS A HI< FL[ ( 9=MATION AB\T :AT DECISIONS EV]YONE ELSE IS MAK+ !N !Y T5D TO BE ABLE TO MAKE ! MO/ 9TELLIG5T DECISIONS & ALSO !Y T5D TO BE ABLE TO MAKE ! DECISIONS ?AT FL[ TOGE!R ) ! DECISIONS ( O!R COMMUNITIES1 O!R NUCLEI & SO =?74 ,& MO/ IMPORTANTLY !RE'S NO ONE PRIVILEG$ PLACE TO /&1 !RE'S NO ONE HI< GR\ND :]E AN ELITE CAN POSE ITSELF AS A POLITICAL *OKE-PO9T & 9FLU5CE ! DECISION-MAK+ ( ! 5TIRE SOCIETY4 

,D4,I4 _?#a3 ,:AT K9D ( PRACTICES DO /ATELESS SOCIETIES HAVE ?AT ALL[ !M TO RESI/ COLONIZATION BETT] ?AN HI]>*ICAL SOCIETIES >E ABLE TO8 

,P4,G43 ,WELL ?IS IS SOME?+ ?AT AN>*I/ AN?ROPOLOGI/ ,JAMES ,C4 ,SCOTT GOES 9TO A LOT1 & !RE'S REALLY A :OLE RANGE ( PRACTICES ?AT 9CLUDE EV]Y?+ FROM AGRICULTURAL PRACTICES TO RELIGI\S BELIEFS TO K9%IP =MS4 ,SO ,I M5TION$ K9%IP RELATIONS 9 :I* EV]YONE IS ?\<T TO BE EV]YONE ELSE'S RELATIVE1 & 9 FACT SOME AN>*I/ SUBCULTURES ALSO APPROA* ?IS IDEAL BY TAK+ ALL ! IMPORTANCE \T ( K9%IP RELATIONS & SPREAD+ IDEAS ( SOLID>ITY4 ,! IDEA ( SOLID>ITY ISN'T LIMIT$ BY K9%IP1 RACE OR NATIONALITY OR ANY?+ LIKE ?AT1 IT'S MEANT TO BE UNIV]SAL 7OR AT LEA/1 EV]YONE ON ?IS SIDE ( ! SOCIAL W>71 & Y\ CAN DEF9ATELY GET CLOS] TO ?AT IDEAL JU/ BY 9CREAS+ AN>*I/ PRACTICES ( HOSPITALITY2 :I* >E BETT] 9 SOME PLACES1 WORSE 9 O!RS4 ,AGRICULTURE3 SO1 NOT MONOCULTURES BASICALLY1 ! PLANT+ ( V]Y DIV]SIFI$ CROPS 9 MORE ( A =E/ G>D51 MORE ( AN ECOSY/EMIC APPROA*4 ,PA/ORALISM ALSO T5DS TO BE A *OICE ( POPULATIONS ?AT >E FLEE+ FROM OR RESI/+ /ATES4 ,RELIGI\S PRACTICES3 Y\ HAVE CASES :]E /ATELESS POPULATIONS WILL KEEP GODS1 !Y'LL KEEP PAN!ONS ( GODS1 BUT ! *>ACT] ( ?OSE GODS WILL *ANGE3 :]EAS ! GODS WILL BE IMP]FECT1 !Y'LL BE OBJECTS ( RIDICULE1 !Y'LL BE JEAL\S1 NA/Y1 TREA*]\S BE+S3 & ?AT ACTUALLY IS A WAY SOMETIMES ?AT /ATELESS SOCIETIES PRES]VE MEMORY ( ! /ATE ON AN IMAG9>Y PLANE1 BY TELL+ /ORIES AB\T GODS 7& REALLY ! OBJECT ISN'T TO WOR%IP ! GODS BUT TO CON/ANTLY ESCAPE ! ATT5TION ( ! GODS74 ,SO ! GODS /& 9 = !SE AU?ORITY FIGURES4 ,O!R SPIRITUAL SY/EMS WILL BE )\T ANY GODS AT ALL 7)\T P]SONIFI$ DEITIES ?AT NE$ TO BE WOR%IP$7 BUT A MORE SPIRIT-BAS$ SY/EM 9 :I* NATURE ITSELF & NATURAL PROCESSES >E SE5 AS LIV+ ?+S & !Y'RE RESPECT$4 ,& SO ?AT'S IMPORTANT3 ON ! ONE H& IT'S A V]Y ACCESSIBLE SPIRITUALITY1 IT'S NOT ONE ?AT'S CONTROLL$ BY PRIE/S1 IT'S NOT ONE ?AT'S MANIFE/$ 9 DI/ANT GODS BUT IT'S ONE ?AT'S ALL >\ND1 ALL-EMBRAC+1 & ?AT ALSO CAN BE USEFUL = TEA*+ EXI/+ 9 BALANCE ) NATURE RA!R ?AN 5GAG+ 9 ! K9D ( EXPLOITATIVE PRACTICES ?AT /ATES 9EVITABLY 5GAGE 94 ,%IFT+ E?NICITIES2 :]E PEOPLE DON'T HAVE FIX$ E?NICITIES BUT CAN CONSID] !MSELVES P>T ( MANY DIFF]5T GR\PS4 ,/ATELESS GR\PS >E MU* MORE LIKELY TO BE MULTI-L+UAL1 TO SPEAK MULTIPLE LANGUAGES444 ,& !N JU/ TO HAVE CULTURES ( AU?ORITY-HAT+4 ,9 FACT A REALLY COMMON PRACTICE 9 /ATELESS SOCIETIES IS ASSASS9ATION2 ANY K9D ( COMMUNITY LEAD] :O444 ,I MEAN1 9 PRETTY MU* EV]Y HUMAN SOCIETY ?AT ,I'VE COME ACROSS !RE >E POSITIONS ( LEAD]%IP1 & ,I KN[ ?AT'S SOME?+ ?AT WE AN>*I/S GRAPPLE ) A LOT BECAUSE WE DON'T LIKE LEAD]%IP1 WE DON'T WANT LEAD]%IP4 ,BUT WE /ILL LIKE ANYONE ELSE DEAL ) 9=MAL HI]>*IES4 ,A LOT ( /ATELESS SOCIETIES RECOGNIZE C]TA9 LEAD]%IP ROLES1 BUT ! PEOPLE :O FILL ?OSE ROLES 9 SOME WAYS T5D TO BE UND]-PRIVILEG$ OR OV]-EXPLOIT$2 :ATEV] WORK ?AT !Y HAVE TO DO AS A LEAD] = OR ON BEHALF ( ! COMMUNITY IS 9 ADDITION TO :ATEV] WORK ?AT !Y HAVE TO DO WORK+ !IR FIELDS & SO =?4 ,SO !Y GET NO MAT]IAL COMP5SATION = IT1 !Y HAVE TO WORK EV5 H>D]1 PEOPLE >E AT ANY TIME FREE TO IGNORE !M1 OR TO JU/ KICK !M \T1 TO AB&ON !M1 TO PUT SOMEONE ELSE 9 ?AT POSITION444 

,D4,I4 _?#a3 ,:AT W\LD BE ! IMPETUS = TAK+ ON SU* A ROLE8 

,P4,G43 ,A S5SE ( RESPONSIBILITY TO ! COMMUNITY4 ,BECAUSE (T5 IT'S A ROLE ( CONFLICT RESOLUTION1 OR M$IATION1 ?+S LIKE ?AT4 ,IT'S (T5 OLD] PEOPLE :O TAKE ON ?OSE ROLES 7& ! EXPLANATION !RE IS ?AT ! DIFF]5T CONFLICT+ P>TIES W\LD POT5TIALLY ALL BE !IR GR&*ILDR51 & SO !Y >E MOTIVAT$ TO TRY TO M5D ?OSE FRACTURES4 

,D4,I4 _?#a3 ,I GUESS IT S\NDS LIKE A COMMITM5T TO ! VALUE ( ! COMMUNITY1 ?AT 9SPIRES Y\ TO TAKE ON A BIT MORE ( A HEAVY ROLE4 

,P4,G43 ,HONE/LY1 :AT 9SPIRES444 ,I MAYBE ?IS WILL BE LIKE A WEIRD COMP>ISON1 AN>*I/S ) COMMUNITY LEAD]S1 BUT :AT 9SPIRES AN>*I/S TO DO EV]Y?+ ?AT WE DO2 :I* IS COMPLETELY UNPAID1 & C]TA9LY ?ANKLESS1 & (T5 REPRESS$ & PUNI%$1 9 ADDITION TO :ATEV] WAGE WORK WE HAVE TO DO 9 ORD] TO PAY ! R5T4 ,BUT GETT+ BACK TO ?AT REALLY BRIEFLY ANO!R ASPECT IS ?AT !RE T5D TO BE DIFF]5T K9DS ( NON-COMPATIBLE LEAD]%IP ?AT >E RECOGNIZ$4 ,SO MAYBE CONFLICT-RESOLUTION ROLE1 OR SOMEONE :O COORD9ATES BETWE5 DIFF]5T COMMUNITIES1 A MORE SPIRITUAL LEAD]%IP ROLE1 & SO =?4 ,?IS W\LD BE ! FREQU5T CASE 9 A LOT ( /ATELESS SOCIETIES4 ,BUT ANY P]SON :O'S SE5 TO BE P[]-HUNGRY1 TO WANT TO AMASS MORE P[]2 !RE'S A COMMON PRACTICE ( ASSASS9ATION 9 /ATELESS COMMUNITIES1 :]E !Y'LL JU/ KILL ! P]SON :O DOES ?AT4 ,& ?AT ,I ?9K T5DS TO BE A PRETTY GOOD TOOL = PREV5T+ ! EM]G5CE ( /RONG HI]>*IES4 

,D4,I4 _?#b3 ,I'M CURI\S AB\T ?IS B9>Y NOTION ( /ATE_/NON-/ATE4 ,BECAUSE :AT Y\'VE JU/ DESCRIB$ !RE C\LD LEGITIMATELY DESCRIBE /ATES ?AT EXI/ 9 ! WORLD TODAY1 SO :AT Y\'VE DESCRIB$ TO ME3 IT JU/ S\NDS LIKE ,LEBANON1 BASICALLY :]E Y\ HAVE A MULTI-E?NIC1 MULTI-L+UAL SOCIETY1 A /RONG TRADITION ( ASSASS9AT+ LEAD]S3 IT'S BASICALLY A NONFUNCTION+ /ATE4 ,SO ,I'M WOND]+ H[ USEFUL ?AT B9>Y BETWE5 /ATE & NON-/ATE IS3 & DO Y\ ACTUALLY SEE IT ?AT WAY OR DO Y\ SEE IT AS A K9D ( SPECTRUM UPON :I* !RE'S HI<LY-FUNCTION+ /ATES 7= EXAMPLE MAYBE ! ,U4,K47 & !N COMPLETELY NONFUNCTION+ /ATES1 :I* >E /ILL /ATES1 & !N ?AT PASSES 9TO MAYBE A NON-/ATE SPECTRUM !RE8 

,P4,G43 ,WELL ! MODELS ?AT ,I WAS DESCRIB+1 ,I WAS TAK+ IT = GRANT$ ?AT !SE W]E )9 DEC5TRALIZ$ COMMUNITIES ?AT >E G5]ALLY AUTONOM\S 9 T]MS ( !IR SUBSI/5CE & SO =?4 ,I HAV5'T GONE 9TO ALL ! DIFF]5T CRIT]IA ?AT >E ACTUALLY IMPLICAT$ 9 ! DEF9ITION ( /ATES BECAUSE ?AT W\LD TAKE AB\T #b M9UTES OR HALF AN H\R1 BUT ?AT 9CLUDE A C]TA9 M9IMUM LEVELS ( BUREAUCRATIC HI]>*Y & SO =?4 ,SO A CASE LIKE ,LEBANON DEF9ITELY QUALIFY AS A /ATE UND] ALL ?OSE O!R CRIT]IA1 BUT !N ALSO )9 ! MULTI-E?NIC /ATE DIFF]5T E?NICITIES T5D TO BE PITT$ AGA9/ ONE ANO!R1 SO ACTUALLY E?NIC ID5TITY IS RE9=C$ RA!R ?AN DISSOLV$4 ,SO :AT ,I WAS TALK+ AB\T IS EA* 9DIVIDUAL WILL BE MULTI-E?NIC RA!R ?AN AN 5TIRE /ATE POPULATION4 ,/ATES V]Y FREQU5TLY 5C\RAGE NATIONALISM1 !Y 5C\RAGE SEP>ATION ( E?NIC ID5TITIES4 ,I ?9K '/ATE' IS A V]Y USEFUL CATEGORY = ANALYSIS = A V>IETY ( REASONS3 ( C\RSE IT'S NOT JU/ AS SIMPLE AS /ATE & NON-/ATE BECAUSE !RE >E MANY HI]>*ICAL NON-/ATE SOCIETIES & 9 ! PA/ #a YE>S ON ! PLANET NON-HI]>*ICAL1 NON-/ATE SOCIETIES HAVE DEF9ITELY BE5 9 ! M9ORITY4 ,BUT ,I ?9K IT'S DEF9ITELY A USEFUL DI/9CTION BECAUSE 9 G5]AL ?IS :OLE IDEA ( L9E> EVOLUTION ,I ?9K IS COMPLETELY FLAW$3 SOCIETIES DON'T DEVELOP 9 ONE DIRECT1 !Y DON'T FOLL[ ONE PA?WAY1 IT'S NOT JU/ A GR[? FROM LESS TO MORE COMPLEX OR ANY?+ LIKE ?AT1 ,I ?9K ?AT'S COMPLETELY FALSE4 ,BUT ,I ?9K ?AT Y\ REALLY CAN MAKE ! /RONG >GUM5T ?AT ONCE A SOCIETY ?AT'S HI]>*ICAL CROSSES ! ?RE%OLD TO /ATE-=MATION !N IT DOES 5T] 9TO ?IS /REAM (444 WELL1 IT BASICALLY FACES ! NE$ TO EI!R EVOLVE OR DIE4 ,BECAUSE ?AT ?AT PO9T444 ,I MEAN1 !RE'S MANY HI]>*IES ?AT >E P>TICIPATORY1 !RE >E MANY HI]>*ICAL SOCIETIES 9 :I* PEOPLE >E RELATIVELY FREE1 !RE'S CYCLES OV] HUNDR$S ( YE>S BETWE5 MORE OR LESS HI]>*Y1 !Y'RE CON/ANTLY *ANG+1 BUT !RE'S NOT ?IS AMASSM5T ( CO]CIVE VIOL5CE ?AT =CIBLY GOV]NS PEOPLE4 ,ONE SOCIETY CROSSES ?AT ?RE%OLD1 :5 ! ELITE 7! /RUCTURES ( C5TRALIZ$ P[]7 HAVE BASICALLY DRAWN AN ANTAGONI/ RELATION%IP ) ! RE/ ( SOCIETY & NEI<BOR+ SOCIETIES & ?AT CON/ANTLY CREATES RESI/ANCE & CONFLICT TO SU* A DEGREE ?AT ANY /ATE ?AT REMA9S /ILL W\LD BE OV]?R[N4 ,& SO !Y GET 9TO !SE EVOLUTION>Y DYNAMICS :]E !Y HAVE TO CON/ANTLY DEVELOP /RONG] =MS ( CONTROL4 ,& ,I ?9K ?AT ?AT IS A V]Y REAL DYNAMIC 9 HI/ORY1 & ,I ?9K IT'S ONE ?AT VALIDATES OR CONFIRMS ! AN>*I/ 9TUITION1 ! AN>*I/ >GUM5T GO+ BACK A LONG TIME3 ?AT Y\ CAN NEV] TRU/ A /ATE1 ?AT /ATES WILL ALWAYS BE \R 5EMIES1 ?AT /ATES WILL ALWAYS REQUIRE ! 5SLAVEM5T 79 ONE =M OR ANO!R7 ( SOCIETY4 

,D4,I4 _?#b3 ,BUT BY ! SAME VIRTUE1 IT'S NOT NECESS>ILY TRUE ?AT A /ATELESS SOCIETY W\LD REFLECT AN>*I/ IDEALS OR :AT Y\ W\LD CONSID] AS A JU/ SOCIETY3 ,I MEAN1 /ATELESSNESS BY ITSELF IS NOT ! BE-ALL & 5D-ALL4 ,!RE'S A LOT ( O!R ?+S ?AT NE$ TO BE A*IEV$1 NO8 

,P4,G43 ,ABSOLUTELY4 ,ABSOLUTELY4 ,I MEAN1 IT WAS /ATELESS SOCIETIES ON DIFF]5T CONT95TS ?AT CREAT$ /ATES4 ,\T ( ! HI]>*IES ?AT !Y ALREADY HAD4 ,A LOT ( /ATELESS SOCIETIES >E PATRI>*AL1 A LOT ( /ATELESS SOCIETIES 5GAGE 9 WANTON W>F>E AGA9/ !IR NEI<BORS2 & SPEAK+ = MYSELF AS SOMEONE BR\<T UP 9 ,WE/]N SOCIETY1 ,I CAN'T JU/ COPY SOME NON-,WE/]N SOCIETY AS MY IDEAL SOCIAL MODEL4 ,ON ! O!R H&1 ,I ?9K IT'S V]Y GOOD ?AT PEOPLE BR\<T UP 9 ,WE/]N SOCIETY TO REALIZE ?AT !Y CAN LE>N FROM O!R SOCIETIES2 ?AT WE NE$ TO BREAK ) ?IS ,EUROC5TRIC CON/RA9T ?AT ! ONLY ?+S ?AT >E VALID >E ! ?+S DEVELOP$ BY ,WE/]N CIVILIZATION4 ,WE %\LD NOT BY ANY MEANS TREAT HI/ORY AS A SUP]M>KET ( SOCIAL MODELS FROM :I* WE CAN JU/ GO %OPP+ >\ND = ! BE/ MODEL1 BECAUSE ?AT W\LD ALSO BE ANO!R MANIFE/ATION ( A TYPICALLY COLONIAL RELATION%IP4 ,& ALSO ,I ?9K IT'S A BEAUTIFUL DREAM1 A GREAT IDEA1 = AN>*I/S TO TRY TO CREATE ! MO/ LIB]AT$ SOCIETY EV] - ( C\RSE NOT TO IMPOSE ?AT ON ! 5TIRE PLANET AS SOME IDEAL MODEL BUT = \RSELVES & ) ! ?\<T ?AT IF IT WORKS \T !N MAYBE WE'LL 9SPIRE O!R PEOPLE & O!R PEOPLE WILL ALSO ADOPT P>TS ( :AT WE DEVELOP4 ,( C\RSE IF WE TRY TO MAKE ! MO/ LIB]AT$ SOCIETY 9 ! HI/ORY ( ! WORLD WE'LL PROBABLY FAIL1 S9CE ?AT'S K9D ( A HI< GOAL444 BUT ,I ?9K IT'S NOT NECESS>ILY A BAD ?+ TO FAIL 9 ! PURSUIT ( L(TY GOALS4 

,D4,I4 _?#a3 ,:AT DO Y\ SEE AS BE+ ! VULN]ABILITIES ( EXI/+ /ATES AT ! MOM5T1 IF ?AT'S K9D ( A HI< GOAL ?AT WE'RE AIM+ T[>DS8 

,P4,G43 ,I W\LD SAY ?AT ! COMPLEX ( /ATES & CAPITALISM 7)9 ! WORLD SY/EM BASICALLY 5G9E]$ BY ! ,UNIT$ ,/ATES & ITS ALLIES AFT] ,WORLD ,W> ,I,I7 IS FAC+ A NUMB] ( V]Y S]I\S CRISES4 ,PRETTY MU* EV]Y /ATE 9VOLV$ IS SUFF]+ SOME K9D ( LEGITIMACY CRISIS1 SOME ( !M QUITE /RONG4 ,CAPITALISM IS 9 ! ?ROES ( ! LATE/ ( ITS CYCLICAL CRISES ( ACCUMULATION1 & !RE'S ALSO A V]Y MAJOR ECOLOGICAL CRISIS2 & ?AT MEANS ?AT A LOT ( PEOPLE >E HAV+ TR\BLE BELIEV+ 9 ! /ATE3 & PEOPLE >E ALSO SEE+ ?AT ! /ATE ISN'T ACTUALLY AS P[]FUL AS IT PRET5DS TO BE1 ?AT N[ MI<T BE A GOOD TIME TO PU% & IF EV]YBODY PU%ES AT ONCE !N ! :OLE ?+ WILL COME TOPPL+ D[N4 ,ONE ?+ ?AT /RUCK ME AS ,I WAS RESE>*+ ! =MATION ( E>LY /ATES 7& ALSO LAT] /ATES7 IS H[ IMPORTANT %>$ BELIEF SY/EMS >E TO /ATES1 H[ RELIGION WAS V]Y V]Y IMPORTANT 9 ! =MATION ( ! FIR/ /ATES1 & 9 ONE =M OR ANO!R IT REMA9S IMPORTANT1 EV5 9 MOD]N /ATES TODAY ?AT CLAIM TO BE SECUL> BUT ?AT /ILL G5]ATE !SE %>$ MY?ICAL BELIEF SY/EMS & ?AT WORK ON ?OSE AS A LEVEL TO 9FLU5CE ! POPULATION & TO KEEP ! POPULATION 9 L9E4 ,( C\RSE /ATES ALSO HAVE GUNS & PRISONS & ALL ( !SE NON-VOLUNT>Y =MS ( 9FLU5CE2 BUT BY DEF9ITION A /ATE CAN'T ANNIHILATE ITS 5TIRE POPULATION1 & SO !Y REQUIRE !SE COMMON BELIEF SY/EMS4 ,& ?AT'S SOME?+ ?AT ALWAYS REQUIRES444 ,I MEAN1 !RE'S ALWAYS BE5 ?IS P>ADOX = AN>*I/S ?AT /ATES1 WE'VE ALWAYS CRITICIZ$ !M = BE+ CO]CIVE & IMPOS+ !IR WILL1 & AT ! SAME TIME RECOGNIZE ?AT PEOPLE ON ONE LEVEL OR ANO!R *OOSE TO SUBMIT TO /ATES4 ,& ,I ?9K ?AT LATT] IS ! RELIGI\S LEVEL ( ! /ATE ?AT /ILL FUNCTIONS2 ANYONE AT ANY MOM5T CAN *OOSE TO REJECT ! DOM9ANT BELIEF SY/EM & ?AT W\LD DEPRIVE ! /ATE ( ONE ( ITS MO/ IMPORTANT & OLDE/ LEV]S =1 LIKE ,I SAID1 GETT+ PEOPLE 9 L9E4 ,9 REC5T YE>S ,I W\LD SAY AN>*I/S & O!R ANTI-AU?ORIT>IANS HAVE ACTUALLY 9FLU5C$ ! BELIEF SY/EMS ( SOCIETY2 = EXAMPLE N[ADAYS 'POLITICIAN' IS AN 9SULT1 'NOBODY TRU/S A POLITICIAN'3 ?AT'S RELATIVELY NEW4 ,?AT'S SOME?+ ,I ?9K ( ! LA/ DECADES ?AT'S COME UP4 ,& = A LONG TIME IS WAS JU/ RADICAL M9ORITIES MAK+ ?AT >GUM5T1 BUT UN=TUNATELY WE'VE (T5 WAT]$-D[N \R [N >GUM5TS SO WE HAV5'T SPOK5 \T AGA9/ OB$I5CE TO AU?ORITY4 ,& 9 FACT DO+ ?AT TODAY1 JU/ LIKE SPEAK+ AGA9/ POLITICIANS 9 ! '#eS W\LD SEEM LIKE Y\ W]E BE+ HI<LY UNFAIR1 'TRA%+ ! REPUTATIONS ( !SE UP/&+ CIVIC S]VANTS :5 IT'S REALLY JU/ A FEW BAD APPLES' OR :ATNOT444 N[ADAYS :5 Y\ CRITICIZE OB$I5CE TO AU?ORITY 9 ALL =MS !N ?AT S\NDS LIKE Y\'RE BE+ A BIT PETULANT4 ,BUT IT'S ALWAYS H>D AT ! BEG9N+2 & IF WE KEEP GETT+ TO ! ROOT ( IT & CRITICIZE ! V]Y RELATION%IP ( GOV]N+ & BE+ GOV]N$ !N :O KN[S1 MAYBE 9 A FEW DECADES ?AT VALUE C\LD ALSO BE UND]M9$1 & ?AT W\LD C]TA9LY GIVE US A GREAT ADVANTAGE 9 ! CRISES TO COME4 ,BECAUSE ! SURE ?+ IS ?AT !RE'S GO+ TO BE A LOT MORE C&IDATES CLAIM+ TO NOT REPRES5T ! POLITICAL MA9/REAM1 NEW POLITICAL P>TIES POPP+ UP MAK+ PROMISES TO BR+ BACK ! GOOD OLD DAYS OR TO F9D ! ADEQUATE SCAPEGOAT1 OR TO BR+ BACK WELF>E1 & :ATEV] ELSE4 ,& IT WILL BE A LOT MORE DIFFICULT = PEOPLE TO BELIEVE 9 ?OSE PROMISES IF !Y UND]/& ?AT ALL ?OSE PROMISES /ILL REQUIRE US TO BE GOV]N$ & SUBJUGAT$1 & TO BE ! PASSIVE RECIPI5TS ( :ATEV] SOLUTION ?OSE RESPONSIBLE = DE/ROY+ SOCIETY & DE/ROY+ ! PLANET HAVE DECID$ TO (F] US4 

,D4,I4 _?#b3 ,SO 9 ?AT CONTEMPOR>Y CONTEXT Y\'RE TALK+ AB\T :]E PEOPLE >E LOS+ FAI? 9 ! /ATE3 !RE'S ALSO A DYNAMIC :]E :AT'S KN[N AS NEO-LIB]ALISM IS TAK+ ! /ATE AP>T FROM ! 9SIDE1 IT'S POT5TIALLY444 ,I MEAN1 DO Y\ ?9K ?AT IS A NEW PHASE 9 /ATE DEVELOPM5T1 OR DO Y\ ?9K ?AT'S JU/ P>T ( A NATURAL CYCLE ?AT'S BE5 GO+ ON S9CE ! BEG9N+ ( ! /ATE4 

,P4,G43 ,I W\LD DISAGREE ?AT NEO-LIB]ALISM IS TAK+ ! /ATE AP>T FROM ! 9SIDE4 ,I ?9K IT'S JU/ *ANG+ MANAGEM5T /RUCTURES4 ,I DON'T ?9K /ATES HAVE LO/ !IR AU?ORITIES2 &1 ASIDE FROM ?AT1 CORPORATIONS >E /ATE COROLL>IES1 !Y'RE BUREAUCRATIC /RUCTURES ?AT ONLY EXI/ ! CONCESSION ( /ATE-RUN 9FRA/RUCTURES & /ATE REGULATION & SO =?4 ,SO NO1 ,I DON'T SEE ANY CYCLE ( /ATES GETT+ /RONG] & GETT+ WEAK]3 ,I ?9K !IR G5]AL PU% IS TO CON/ANTLY 9CREASE !IR [N P[]4 

,D4,I4 _?#b3 ,BUT !RE'S NEW *>ACT]I/ICS BE+ TAK5 ON3 LIKE ONE ( ! ?+S ?AT Y\ SAID ?AT *>ACT]IZES A /ATE IS ?AT =1 EXAMPLE1 IT'S T]RITORY-BAS$2 & N[ CORPORATIONS HAVE ! ABILITY TO EXI/ ACROSS BORD]S & ACROSS ! GLOBE IF !Y SO WI%4 ,SO ?AT'S A NEW WAY ( EX]CIS+ ?AT SAME MANAGEM5T /RUCTURE 9 A P>ALLEL WAY1 SO & 9 T]MS ( ! WAY PEOPLE 9T]ACT AS WELL1 Y\ HAD ?+S LIKE ! 9T]NET :I* HAVE BROK5 D[N BORD]S ON A V]Y L[ LEVEL AT ! SAME TIME2 SO ,I MEAN >E WE OP]AT+ ON A DIFF]5T L&SCAPE1 OR IS IT ! SAME AS :AT WE W\LD HAVE BE5 DEAL+ ) BE=E8 

,P4,G43 ,YEAH1 DEF9ATELY ! L&SCAPE IS *ANG+4 ,BUT ONE 9T]E/+ ?+ IS1 IT W\LD HAVE MADE S5SE PROBABLY = ! ,UNIT$ ,/ATES AFT] ! 5D ( ! ,COLD ,W> TO 5C\RAGE ! ,UNIT$ ,NATIONS 7OR SOME O!R GLOBAL GOV]NM5T /RUCTURE 9 :I* IT W\LD HAVE1 IF NOT A CONTROLL+ SAY1 A V]Y L>GE /AKE73 BUT BECAUSE ( MORE P>O*IAL ATTITUDES )9 ! ,U,S ,RI<T !Y COMPLETELY JU/ TORP$O$ ! ,U,N4 ,:I* IS FUNNY1 BECAUSE IT WAS K9D ( !IR [N BRA9*ILD ANYWAYS444 ,& N[ !Y'RE REALLY SUFF]+ ! CONSEQU5CES ( ?AT1 ?AT ) !SE DIFF]NET CRISES GO+ ON ONE ( ! FEW POSSIBILITIES = CAPITALI/ EXPANSION 79 MAYBE NOT ! IMM$IATE FUTURE BUT ! MID-T]M FUTURE7 W\LD BE CAPITALI/ EXPANSION 9TO \T] SPACE3 !RE IS NOT REALLY A PLAT=M = GOV]NANCE AT ?AT /AGE1 & SO !Y'VE DEF9ATELY CREAT$ SOME LIMITATIONS = !MSELVES = !IR EXPANSION4 ,BUT YEAH )\T A D\BT ! L&SCAPE KEEPS ON *ANG+1 & ! FACT ( !M NOT HAV+ A PLAT=M = /ABLE GOV]NANCE AT ?IS L>G] SCALE ?AT P[] HAS GR[N TO1 9 ! PA/ W\LD USUALLY JU/ MEAN ANO!R W> BETWE5 ! GLOBAL CONT5D]S1 & ?AT'S C]TA9LY POSSIBLE AL?\< !Y'LL ALSO REALIZE ?AT MILIT>Y P[] HAS GR[N TO A DIFF]5T SCALE ?AT W\LD MAKE SU* A W> A LITTLE BIT UNWISE1 AT LEA/ FROM A M>KET & SURVIVAL /&PO9T4 

,D4,I4 _?#a3 ,COOL1 & ON ?AT NOTE ?ANK Y\ V]Y MU* = COM+ TO TALK TO US4 

,P4,G43 ,?ANKS = HAV+ ME4 

,D4,I4 _?#a3 ,& IT'S BE5 GREAT TO HAVE Y\ ON4 

,FROM 3 ,!,AN>*I/,LIBR>Y4ORG4 

,*RONOLOGY 3 
,JANU>Y #b1 #bba 3 ,PET] ,GELD]LOOS ON /ATE =MATION & /ATELESS SOCIETIES -- ,ADD$4 
,JANU>Y #f1 #bbb 3 ,PET] ,GELD]LOOS ON /ATE =MATION & /ATELESS SOCIETIES -- ,UPDAT$4 

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